Knife Knotes XIV

February 2008

Knife Prices

Knife prices are continually edging up, is this a favorable trend? Depends on if you are selling or buying. It hurts the new collector and prevents many from entering the hobby. It helps the long established collector who has a sizeable investment. That said, it's market dynamics. The value of things are determined by the demand that exists, there is someone out there paying the inflated prices. There's nothing unfair about that, just depends on your point of view.

 

Quote
Just in case you think optimism is dead, the average pencil is seven inches long with just a half inch of eraser.

Robert Brault

 

Brass Use During WW II
No definitive answer that I know of. The war started for the US on Dec 7, 1941 but it wasn't until October 21, 1942 manufacturers were told to stop using copper in almost all civilian use products. A few days after VE-day, May 6, 1945, producers of civilian goods were given permission to place orders for steel, copper, and aluminum for delivery after July 1, 1945 and rating floors were removed to permit placing unrated orders if they did not interfere with war needs. Limitation orders on some 73 types of products were removed, and restrictions of this nature continued to be lifted almost daily during the interim period. While the war didn't last much longer after that date most cutleries had brass on hand that they had been restricted from using, it was simply a matter of getting it from the warehouse and using it. Many even fought to use it or at least sell it during the war but it never happened, red tape I guess. The MIL-K knife was allowed the use of brass as it was a war use item and somehow they talked the War Production Board into it. The Pocket Knife Industry Advisory Board was a virtual Who’s Who of the knife industry and most of them had offices right in Washington. When not working on selling knives and taking orders from the government they were working on advisory boards.

Could it have been used on making knives, sure. Most are probably post war made items but all sorts of things happened in those years of the war, Cole made huge brass knuckle knives didn’t he.

 

US Military Kitchen Cutlery as a Collectable?
Not at all sexy but there are quite a few models of military kitchen cutlery that are routinely overlooked by collectors. Many in fact have not been identified such as the flour de lies marked aluminum handled mess cutlery. Who are they?? It is a very commonly found mess kit knife so must have been made in very large numbers but so far an unknown. Many of the butcher knives are marked by the manufacturer and even dated to some degree. This all adds up to big buck if it were an M3 but alas the kitchen knives are still rather cheap when compared. Now some folks think they are worth a mint when they have one for sale but will probably end up dying with it when priced too high. Collectors won’t pay it and for what ever reason they are uncommon to find in excellent condition. They are working tools, they got used up rapidly so finding a really nice dated butcher or cooks knife is harder then finding a V42. Think about it.

A hard one to find is Village Blacksmith and the company has a wonderful history to go with it. The name first saw usage in 1898 by the Washington Cutlery Company of Watertown Wisc. The staple products of this company were working butcher and kitchen knives. During World War Two we see the USMC Hospital Corps knives made by Village Blacksmith. They had at least two contracts in 1942 for these items in the amount of 18,000 and 27,500 items each. The Village Blacksmith name still exists, it is now owned by a California company called Olympia Group. The working kitchen, butcher, skinning knives from VB can be found with contract data, US markings and even dated on some. Quite a collection could be amassed in these knives but it would be work, they are not seen all that often.

           

 

Here’s a one to think about…
(Australian AP) A police sergeant and two constables were patrolling outside Brisbane, Qld., Australia, when their vehicle was struck by lightning. "Everything went on, the siren, lights, horn," said Sgt. Craig Shepherd. "It was one of the most freakiest things I've ever seen." The officers proceeded to limp the damaged vehicle back to the station, the siren blaring the whole way so they could get the tools to disconnect the siren. I guess constables in Australia don’t carry pocket knives with them, between the three of them you would think at least one of them would have a knife!

 

Worth
Sometimes the issue between rare and or uncommon and actual demand gets blurred. Rare or uncommon isn't ’ an open invitation to having items reproduced or faked, demand is. Another thing to look for is condition. A true rare item we should pick up is just about any condition while an item in demand we should only look at the best possible condition we can afford. A terrible example of an item in demand yet readily available with some searching would be a poor decision to purchase. Many items in demand can often be found in perfect condition. Two perfect examples are the V42 and the M3, both of which are in high demand and neither of which are rare or even uncommon, they are just in high demand. Because they are often found in near mint to perfect condition, there is a tremendous price drop on examples with even the smallest defects. The more I study prices the more convinced I become that price is dictated soley upon demand, rarity does not figure into price. Demand is fueled by exposure in movies, books, magazines, websites and talk forums, the increased exposure escalates pricing. Romance plays a big part in the demand as well, association with highly exposed groups escalates pricing, hence the V42 is super expensive as it was associated with the extremely well known First Special Service Force, the Black Devils, the Force, the Devils Brigade etc. Movies and several books have been written about them, the knife is extremely well made and looks great, it has all the attributes of a classic collectable yet is isn’t even close to rare, they are consistently found for sale in near mint condition on down. On the flip side super rare knives can be worth very little because there is no demand. In many cases they are unknown as they have had little to no exposure. Everyone knows about the USMC 2^nd Raiders and the Collins little machetes they carried but few know about the USMC 1^st Raiders and the Camillus hunting knife they carried. That Camillus wouldn’t bring $100.00 in perfect condition on a great day because few know what they look like and even fewer know how to tell.

 

What Hope is There for Antique Arms Collectors in UK?
from "The Daily Telegraph" 18th Jan. 2008.

"PUT AWAY YOUR ARMS DRAMA GROUP IS TOLD".
A village amateur dram group performing Robinson Crusoe has had to tell
police about the use of plastic swords because of health and safetl fears.
The Carnon Downs Dram Group, at Perranwell, Cornwell, must lock up its two
plastic cutlasses, six wooden swords and a toy gun when they are not in use
and appoint a "responsible guardian" for them.
The group said it informed police about the use of replica weapons after
studying new health and safety guidlines and new legislation to crack down
on violent crime.
"We have got several wooden and plastic swords, two plastic spears and a gun
that cost £2 from a joke shop. But now we need to keep them locked away."
The National Operatic and Drama Association said it supported the new policy
because "it enables weapons to be used safely and legally in theatrical
performances".

Heaven help us all in UK.

Sent to us by Good Friend Peter White in the UK


Some Truths I Have Learned From Collecting Knives

1. When you find something good at a show that you want to buy, do NOT set it down on the table to count the money you have on you. Someone standing next to you will scoop it up and make an offer.
2. Do not offer an opinion on a friends newest purchase unless you are badgered to do so, you may not be friends afterwards.
3. If you are in a crowd of guys and hear someone say, "Anyone got a knife", walk away. Do not reach into you backpack and pull out the WW II Randall you just purchased. They do not want to look at it, knives are made to cut things, even old ones.
4. Big tough knives can be broken by dropping them.
5. Styles change, high quality and excellent condition are constants.
6. Prices will vary by make, model, condition, day of the week, weather, mood, etc, see number 5 above.
7. eBay is not the enemy.
8. Newbies, you have to ask for help before you can receive it.
9. When you buy that first fake knife, mount it on the wall as a constant reminder. Note I said when, not if.
10. Forget High School, books are our friends.
11. Even the largest collections start with a single knife.
12. Sometimes missing a great deal can be fun as well, it creates a great memory to tell your friends how the big one got away.
13. Occasionally sell a knife and go through great pains to let your wife know you sold it. It is like the old adage of a man doing a load of wash, if she didn’t witness you doing it did you really do it?
14. Sneak one back in to replace it.
15. Regrets are stupid useless human emotions. Another one will come along.
16. Always keep in mind, this is a hobby and it is supposed to be fun.
17. A sack full of money is cool but a sack full of knives makes me happier.
18. Finding a single page with a knife fact I didn’t know, in a building full of billions of pages still amazes me.
19. I purchase more books and paperwork then knives in any given year but I am still a knife collector.
20. The truth behind that knife story is typically simple because unlike fiction it doesn’t have to make sense.
21. Helping others who attempt to help themselves makes me feel good. I don’t believe in handouts but I do believe in a hand up.
22. Real knife people are good people.
23. My best research luck always comes when I try my hardest.
24. Like Jiminy Cricket says, Always let your conscience be your guide.
25. Knives are sharp, even old ones.

 

Be on the Lookout for a Few Stolen Knives.

I saw your ads for the BC-41 knives and wanted to ask you to please be on the lookout for two BC-41 knives that were stolen from me in Washington State. One is an older BC-41 style knife, an original Clements that looks exactly like a BC-41 but is unmarked with a brass handle and the knuckles are slightly blunted. The handle was originally blackened but most of the black finish has worn off from handling over the years and only remains mostly in the recessed areas. The blade is not blackened and has some patina and pitting. The other one is an old H.G. Long reproduction knife (offered through the VA Knife Collector Club) limited edition BC-41 with extensive scrollwork on the brass handle, has a bright blade, and is in mint condition. It was in a wooden case with sliding glass top and red velvet lining. The knife was marked number 101 of 700 (I'm not absolutely positive of the exact number, but it's very close to that). There were also two original U.S. 1918 LF& C Mark 1 Trench knives stolen with the two BC-41 knives. Both had original scabbards, one knife & scabbard was in near mint condition, and the other one had seen some use. There were also some M6 leather sheaths with them. As a fellow collector, could you please be on the lookout for these knives, and let me know if anyone contacts you trying to sell them. They are VERY important to me. The original unmarked BC-41 belonged to my grandfather, and one of the LF&C knives belonged to my step-dad, who carried it in the Pacific in WWII. They were stolen sometime around Sept. '07. There were several other knives stolen along with them, but those are the ones that I'm mainly concerned about.

thank you - Brian Sandberg

 

Israeli Use of the Mk2 and Other Knives

We hear from good friend Sa’ar who explains some of the items we spoke about back in the Novemeber posting and adds to it with some items we were not aware of. Many US knives made it to Israel post WW II in many ways I suppose, direct and indirectly. Sa’ar explains to us that the B&W photo had been taken at the end of the Sinai War at 1956, the one-eyed officer in the middle is of course Gen. Moshe Dayan, then the chief of staff. The officer on the right with the knife is a colonel (later to become general and establisher of the Israeli Natural Reserves Authority), commander of the 9^th brigade, the late Abraham Yaffe.

Sa’ar also sent us several pics for our education on the use of the knife and wearing along with Israeli made knives that look like US made items and current use pieces.

First, pics of the Beva knife, note a fuller on one side only. The colored spacer pattern is different on each knife. Very hard blade was sometimes brittle and the high gloss finish was NOT to army specifications. Interesting piece of local militaria and industrial attempt nevertheless.

       

Palmah – the initials stand for Plugot Mahaz = "Crush Companies", the first special forces during pre-state times, organized underground army. They issued a fighting knife, actually a dagger, made in Tel-Aviv and officially issued. The upper piece is the regular pattern with a brass cap and guard, the lower one is a very rare variation without a cap and having an iron S guard. This dagger supposedly had been issued to the IDF first officer's course graduates. The additional pic shows a Palmah trooper with a dagger on his belt.

   

Kabars: this is from my personal collection, all have been found here. From left to right: 1^st gen. Kabar signed (faintly) only USMC, note the thin Coke-bottle shaped handle and custom made sheath (this knife belonged to my father and the sheath was made for him, bearing his initials, in 1960); unused, mint condition Robeson Suredge without the red spacer; Camillus Mk II, a late Ka-bar marked USN.

Pic Kabar p1 shows paratroopers under the walls of A-Rahwe (Operation Jehonathan, Jordan) police, prior to their explosion, mid 50's. 2^nd soldier from left clearly has a kabar on his webbing; the last soldier (frontal from back) has a TL-29 lineman's set. The left soldier is Marcel Tobias, father of the IDF airborne brigade and one of the most decorated fighters of the IDF.

Pic Kabar p2 is from the Sinai War 1956, the big guy on the left also has a kabar, just right to his canteen.

Attached is a photo of a lineman set, which is a late period (1960's) copy of the American made set. Note the leather sheath is marked with the IDF letter Z (for ZAHAL = IDF), attached is a close-up copy of the stamp. The pliers are of quality British manufacture, stamped with a small Z on the pivot and the folding knife is an Israeli made copy of the Camillus knife. Again, one blade is marked Z. There was an unknown quantity of original American sets, I know of several in collections over here, usually only the sheath is marked.

   

Thanks for the education Sa’ar!

 

Camillus MIL-K knives
When I toured the plant for the auction sale the work stations were full of parts ready to assemble. They left for the strike and pretty much never came back to work. The blades in all the bins were dated 2006 and the finished and partly finished knives were all 2006 dated. No 2007 dated blades were anywhere to be found, they did not start making them yet. So for those of you keeping count we have the single 1949 knife and then continuous production with every year stamped from 1957 to 2006. A fifty-year continuous run of the simple MIL-K pattern knife, blows my mind to think about it. If the new owners of the name start up production of this pattern we will have a definite cut off period with the 2006 date being the last produced by the original Camillus firm in Camillus NY.

 

Barteaux Machetes
Can anyone help in dating Barteaux machetes or knives for that fact. What should we be looking for to give us some clues on the age. These patterns have been around for quite some time now and are legitimately old so a new one could fool the owner into thinking it is an older one and the other way around as well. Just has me wondering…

                           

 

They Are Still Out There
Inspiring email received here…

Morning Sir

I was doing some reading on your web page on the Case V42 WW II landing knife. Well my father in law has one he got from a friend for 200 dollars a month ago and I would like to know if I could send you pics of it to see what you think of it

Thank you for your time

Some folks just live right I guess… Here are the pictures of an original Case V42 Ships Landing Force knife as issued on the USS Omaha.